Episode 232 transcript - Secret Milan - A Local's Guide

Untold Italy Episode 232: Secret Milan - A Local's Guide

This is the Untold Italy Travel podcast, and you're listening to episode number 232.

Ciao a tutti and Benvenuti to Untold Italy, the travel podcast, where you go to the towns and

villages, mountains and lakes, hills and coastlines of Bella Italia. Each week your host Katy

Clarke takes you on a journey in search of magical landscapes of history, culture, wine,

gelato, and, of course, a whole lot of pasta. If you're dreaming of Italy and planning future

adventures there, you've come to the right place.

Katy

I’m curious, have you been to Milan? And what did you think? I love this city and its clash of

old and new Italy, its design focus and flair and vibe and wonderful coffee and cocktail bars.

I’ve said it before but I think Italy is at its most thrilling best when you see the respect for

tradition juxtaposed with innovation - and you definitely find that in Milan. Out of all the

cities in Italy, I think it feels the most international to me and that makes it an exciting

contrast to some of the other Italian cities.

Today I’m thrilled to welcome onto the show a friend - Inge de Boer - who I met way back in

2016 when I was writing my food travel blog. Inge took me on a really fun food tour of Milan

and introduced me to a pretty amazing chocolate shop Zaini - that I’ve been dreaming of and

seeking out ever since. Imagine my excitement when my coffee came with a perfectly

wrapped square of Zaini chocolate one day in the Dolomites last year!

Inge and I reconnected recently and it was so great to catch up and hear all about what she’s

been up to including contributing to a fun online city game and writing guidebooks. I’m going

to let her introduce herself in her own words though so let’s welcome her onto the show.

Katy

Benvenuti. Welcome on to the Untold Italy podcast.

Inge

Thank you, Katy. Thanks for having me here on this great podcast.

Katy

I am so excited to have you here. I can hardly believe that we were having a delicious

risotto-style lunch just a few weeks ago, and now we are here on the opposite sides of the

world, getting ready to chat about wonderful Milano. But before we get started, I'd love for

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

you to share about who you are, your background, and how you came to be living in Milan,

and what you do there.

Inge

Yeah, thank you very much. Well, apart from meeting two weeks ago, we already met a few

years ago, actually, when I just moved to Milan, because I moved there in 2012. I am

originally from the Netherlands I studied there, graduated there. But then at some point, my

husband and I, we decided it was time for a year abroad, and we ended up in Milan, mainly

because of the World Exhibition, which happened here in 2015. After that great experience

working in an Italian company which has its upside and downside, I actually decided to start

to work as a freelancer, and I started to propose different tours through the city of Milan.

When we met, I was mainly proposing an Alt Milano food tour, which was really exciting, but

on the other hand, also a little bit hard to organize because of the collaboration with the

local entrepreneurs. I changed - I still am organizing tours through the city of Milan, but now

I'm focusing more on more general tours related to an introduction to the city of Milan, but

also more focused on architecture, because actually I graduated as an architect, so that's my

background.

Inge

Besides that, I also wrote two travel guides, one for Milan and one for Lake Como in Dutch,

unfortunately. Probably not many of your audience can read this, but it was a really excited

way to get to know more about my city, Milan, because I now call it my hometown, and also

Lake Como, which is so nearby and which I really like to spend some time on during the

weekends.

Katy

It's really lovely. You've also worked on an app, haven't you?

Inge

Well, it's not really an app. It's a self-guided city game. I think this is what you are referring

to. It's called Secret City Trails. You play it actually in your web browser, and it's a really nice

way for last minute fun activity through the city of Milan, but also Como and the larger

beautiful village on Lake Como as well.

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

Katy

She's a very clever lady, this one. You can do your tours in English as well as Dutch, right?

Inge

Yeah. Dutch is my main focus, but I'm also capable of doing the tours in English, definitely.

Katy

Yeah, absolutely. Your English is perfect.

Inge

Thank you, Katy.

Katy

I think it would be really amazing to do a tour, an architectural tour of Milan with someone

who knows a lot about architecture because it is actually very interesting, thanks to the older

style architecture, but also the new architecture that's there. There's some really amazing

buildings. One of the things I love about Milan is it's really got a really strong design focus. It's

where you see the best of the old and the new coming together in Italy. It's really fun, I think.

Inge

Yeah, that's another reason why Milan is such a particular city, but also an interesting city,

definitely compared to other Italian cities, because it has some really important

contemporary architecture and big developments also. So yeah, definitely.

Katy

Yeah, I really like that. Is it Bosco Reale? Is that the one?

Inge

It's, of course, a beautiful Bosco Verticale, which is the vertical forest by Stefano Boeri, and

it's a whole area around this building as well. But then you also have City Life, which has

three contemporary office towers and also some residential buildings, all designed by star

architects like Zaha Hadid and Daniel Libeskind who are also world famous architects actually

getting some commissions in the city of Milan.

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

Katy

I just love how the city has really embraced that design heritage and taking it forward into

the future, because sometimes - some travelers say they're a little bit disappointed with Milan

after they visit Rome, Florence, and Venice. I don't know if you get that impression, but for

me, I think that it's because maybe they're expecting the old world or the older architecture,

and they come to Milan, and it's a little bit different. What do you think?

Inge

That's true, and I completely agree. I also get this feedback from my clients. People come to

the city of Milan without any expectations, or maybe they have some expectations because

other people told them that there's not much to see apart from the Duomo, the Galleria, and

the Castello, and shopping, of course. In a way, maybe it's true, or maybe it's not true, but it's

more difficult to understand the city of Milan compared to other Italian cities. And it has

different reasons. First of all, because Milan always has been a very wealthy city, they always

have been very rich, close to the Alps, so it was easy to get in touch with northern parts of

Europe, and they were also trading a lot with them. They never had trouble demolishing old

buildings and constructing new ones in order to remain up to date with the rest of the world.

And then on the second hand, the city has been bombed a lot during the Second World War,

meaning that after the Second World War, there have been lots of reconstructions of

buildings, but also densification in the city. So we have less squares, for example, because

after the Second World War, the municipality decided to construct buildings high rise on these

squares.

Inge

Of course, don't expect a big high-rise city. It's not like a metropole like New York or Bombay

or anything like that. But still, compared to other cities, Milan is different and it's more

complicated to understand where you have to go. So you really have to prepare yourself, buy

a travel guide or take a tour with a guide to can show you what are the nice places in the

city, and also maybe explain you the story about behind it, because often also this helps you

to better understand the city. I don't say this because I want to make publicity for myself, but

I think it gives you a better idea of the city of Milan.

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

Katy

It's difficult to get a real taste of a place unless you're there with a local, whether that's a

friend or a guide or someone that can navigate you around and share some of the really

amazing spots. I think that's really one of the motivations behind this podcast is to really get

locals on board to tell us about what there is to do and see that's really special about their

city. When we reconnected, I was so thrilled because there was one particular place, and I

told you this the other week, that you took me to. I can't stop thinking about it - this

chocolate shop, Zaini. I loved it. I loved the whole design. I loved the taste of the chocolate. I

I love their big Espresso machine, their vintage one. I just loved everything about it. I think

that's one of the really cool things about Milan. There's some more famous places, I guess.

Everyone knows the Duomo and the Galleria and the Last Supper and maybe the Castle,

maybe.

Inge

Exactly.

Katy

But there's so many more things to do in see in Milan. Why don't you share some of your

favorites with our listeners?

Inge

Well, I think first of all, what not many people know is that Milan has lots of museums, and

they are really diverse between each other. You have, for example, it's called Casa Museo in

Italian, meaning house museum. Often, these are houses which belong to wealthy Milanese

people. They are decorated in a very, very beautiful way, very detailed, and they now have

been open to the public, so you can visit them and maybe see also their art collection, which

is very particular. One of them is Poldi Pezzoli, which is very close to the Scala Opera House,

just a few steps away. And also in this same area in the Quadrilatero della Moda, so the

fashion neighborhood, it's called Bagatti Valsecchi, two beautiful Casa Museo.

Inge

Then on the other end, if you prefer contemporary art, there's also lots of options. You can,

of course, go to the Triennale Design Museum, where they focus mainly on design. Another

similar museum, it's called ADI Design Museum, where they display the winners of the

Compasso d'Oro, which is a very famous design prize from Italy. And there you can see

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

everything from bull pens to Ferraris, from huge boat to, I don't know, door handles, for

example. So it's completely everything you might need during the day as industrial design,

you can see there. And this is a very new museum.

Inge

But also we have the beautiful Fondazione Prada, and I must be a little bit proud on this one

because it's designed by a Dutch architect, Rem Koolhaas, and his studio OMA. It's actually the

refurbishment of an old distillery, and he also added some buildings. This is housing the

contemporary art collection of the Prada family, and it organizes contemporary exhibitions as

well on mainly contemporary art.

Katy

There's a famous café there, too, isn't there?

Inge

That's true. This is already the cafe or the architecture is where to visit, even when you don't

visit the museum itself. There's a famous café there, and it's designed by Wes Anderson,

which is a famous director. Yeah, definitely have a coffee there, at least. I suggest also a

cake.

Katy

Is the coffee good?

Inge

The coffee is good, and also their cake's very sweet, but you can't get them anywhere else in

Milan, so have a break there, definitely.

Katy

Yeah. I think it's really one for people that are big fans of Wes Anderson or anyone really that

loves design. This is the best thing about Milan. People take for granted what it takes to

design something simple that we use in everyday life. But actually, there's been a lot of

amazing innovations that come out of Italy. I had a boss who sadly passed away now, but he

used to work for Olivetti. This is the best example that I could give, was that they made

typewriters for those who don't know. For all of you younger listeners who don't know what a

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

typewriter is - Oh, my gosh. I don't even know... it's a keyboard where you punched in letters

and paper came out. I don't know if I've described it properly.

Inge

It's a integration of a keyboard and a printer.

Katy

Anyway, he told me that Olivetti had built a hotel or an office that was in the shape of the

typewriter, which this is what I love about Italians. Why not? If you're going to do it, go big

and go large and do it properly. They go into the details. Yeah. So many exciting museums. I'd

love to go and see that design one. What else can you tell us?

Inge

Well, if I move away from the museums because I just give you a short impression that there's

many, many more to visit. Also, visit definitely the Pinacoteca di Brera or the Pinacoteca

Ambrosiana, where they have beautiful collections of historical paintings from the 13th

century onwards of also the well-known paintings from Italy, like Caravaggio, Tintoretto,

Rafael. So if you are an art lover, you have to go there.

Katy

And, sorry to interrupt, there's no one there. Exactly. It's not like the Uffizi Gallery where

you're squashed into everyone else. You can go and see these amazing pieces of art with very

few other people.

Inge

Well, actually, now we're talking about the Pinacoteca di Brera, very close by. There's also an

Orto Botanico, a botanical garden. It's part of the same complex. You can visit this also six

days a week. So not on Sundays, and it's free entrance. It's a very tiny botanical garden, but

actually it shows you very well that Milan is also a very green city. Because also in many

people's minds, Milan is gray, dirty, lots of traffic, etc. But still we have lots of green. This

green used to be part of the convents that used to be in the historical center of the city of

Milan. And they used these gardens, amongst others, for growing food for the inhabitants of

the convents, but also for people of the city of Milan. They grew medicinal herbs in order to

make people more healthy, and they used to grow grapes for winemaking. This is not very

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

positive. Well, it's a positive story, but the wine wasn't that good. Because wine at some

point, or for a long time actually, used to be the only way to trench your thirst. People didn't

have any access to drinking water, so they just drunk wine, also the children. But it was

disgusting. It was very dry. It was not nice to drink. But anyways, they grew it in those

gardens of the convents. The Botanical Garden is really worth a visit also just for a 10

minutes break of the chaos of the Italian city of Milan.

Inge

What also not many people know is that besides the Duomo, there's many, many other

churches you can visit in Milan which are definitely worth a visit. We have quite a lot of

historical churches constructed from the fourth, fifth century, so 1,500 years in age. And one

very beautiful church is the San Maurizio al Monastero Maggiore, and its nickname is the

Sistine Chapel of Milan because of all the decoration in the interior. Have you been there,

Katy?

Katy

I haven't. I'm really intrigued now.

Inge

I'm trying to give you a next reason to come back to the city of Milan, as you can imagine. It's

not that well known. It's not far from the Last Supper and also not far from the castle in

Milan. In the inside, it has many declarations done by Bernardino Luini and his sons.

Bernardino Luini was student of Leonardo da Vinci, so actually quite an important painter who

was known mainly locally. Unfortunately, he didn't get any world fame like Leonardo da Vinci

did, but locally, he did some very important works.

Katy

I was just going to say it's really interesting because I feel like in the past, Milan was a little

bit self-contained, unlike the Medici in Florence that like to spread out all over. It seems like

the Milanese, they like to keep themselves in Milan and keeping to themselves a little bit.

Inge

I think they had other things to worry about because when the Medici were ruling in Florence,

we here had the Visconti and the Sforza family, and they tried to compete also with the

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

Medici, but there was the mountains in between, so it was not an easy job to do. Then the

Milanese people more had to worry about the people coming from the northern parts of

Europe, Austria, Switzerland, France, etc. Actually, Milan has also been occupied by the

Austrians, the French people, and the Spanish people. We had lots of influence from

foreigners as well.

Katy

It's interesting. I hadn't really thought of that, but it's so true. That side of the Alps and the

River Po, there's more opportunities for marauding invaders from the north.

Inge

Definitely, yeah. You're completely right about this. The other thing particular about this

beautiful church, the San Maurizio al Monastero Maggiore, is that it's separated in two

separate parts. The first one, so when you enter as a visitor, you arrive from the street, you

have the possibility to pass a small corridor or a passageway, and then you get the area

dedicated to the nuns who used to live there. But the nuns were not allowed to get in touch

with other people, so there was no visual connection between one part of the church and the

other part of the church. It's really exciting to see this.

Katy

It might not have been exciting for them to be locked up.

Inge

That's true. But it's a few hundred years ago, luckily.

Katy

Yeah, exactly. That's so interesting. These are really things that are just not on normal lists

about Milan, for sure. What else have you got for us, Inge?

Inge

Are you getting hungry or you like a coffee?

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

Katy

Always.

Inge

Okay. Well, maybe then it's nice to talk a little bit about this. Because, of course, Italy has

lots of traditional food, all the delicious pasta. You were already mentioning the risotto we

had a few weeks ago, which is delicious. I think the risotto is one of the things you have to try

when you are in Milan, especially the risotto Milanese, in which they add saffron, so it gets

the beautiful yellow color.

Inge

But besides the traditional dishes in Milan, there's also lots of opportunities to have some

more contemporary food. I think also here, Milan is different than other Italian cities because

also, food entrepreneurs are trying to innovate in this city. We have some really good

specialty coffee bars, for example. One of them is Orso Nero, which you can find near the

Porta Venezia area, which is also a nice area to visit, not known by many tourists. So

definitely go there for a breakfast or maybe a dinner because it's a nice area with lots of

restaurants, bars, etc. And a little bit more famous, it's called Cafeza. And this is a Brazilian

guy who moved to Milan already some time ago, and he's decided to open a specialty coffee

store, and he's roasting the coffee himself. Actually, he's even selecting the beans right from

the farmers in Brazil. So he really knows the origin of his products. They have three bars

already in the city of Milan in different areas. Actually, you don't have any excuse not to go

there because it's always kind of close by your accommodation. This is definitely also

something I like to recognize to you.

Katy

With the coffee style, in Australia, we are very particular about our coffee, actually, even

sometimes sometimes a little bit more than Italians, not in Milan, but in the north. And

Australians do like to drink a milky coffee, so we won't just drink Espresso. We'll probably

have a Macchiatto or maybe a cafe latte something more milky. What is the style of the

coffee bars there, Cafeza? Is that a particular one where you'd go just for an Espresso?

Inge

Or is that- Well, they actually, and that's what happens with many specialty coffee bars, they

suggest you, if you are a first-time visitor, to have an Espresso and even to do not add any

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

sugar in order to taste the coffee in its original state. Then maybe you add one or two sips

and you think, okay, it was too strong, then you're allowed of course, to add sugar. But they

suggest you to try it without the sugar. I think these coffee-style bars mainly serve the

traditional Italian coffee. Espresso, Espresso Macchiato, which is completely different than a

Latte Macchato because it only has a spot of milk in it, an Espresso Macchiato, or for

example, a Cappuccino. In many cases, you also can order the Cappuccino with vegetable

milk.

Katy

Like soy milk?

Inge

Soy milk, yeah. So in many cases, you can also order your cappuccino with a non-dairy milk. I

think this is one of the differences. The other difference is that still a takeaway coffee is not

something you really do in Italy. It happens, and especially actually, after the pandemic, it

became more normal that you do a takeaway coffee. But spending a few minutes in a bar is

also something which is still part of the Italian culture. You have a chat with the barman,

maybe you talk about the soccer game of the night before or about your plans for the next

holidays, and then you go back to your work or you go back and do grocery shopping or

whatever you were heading to. You can get your takeaway coffee, but just enjoy these five

minutes in the bar.

Inge

Maybe not mention the football this week. I had another question, actually, about saffron.

Where does the saffron come from that they use in the Milanese?

Inge

Originally, of course, it comes from Iran and the Middle East, but it arrived in Italy, I think in

the 14th century already in Sicily, where the climate is more North African, so it was able to

grow it. Now there are actually even some young producers in the Milan area, really working

in the initial phase because they really have to do the research, understand what type of

saffron is growing in this climate because we have a more cold, humid climate compared to

where the saffron is coming from. But they can grow it here. There are, of course, people

saying that the saffron grown in this area in the in Northern Italy is disgusting. They prefer

the saffron coming from warmer areas.

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

Katy

Why are they using the saffron? What made them put in the risotto?

Inge

Well, that's a really romantic legend about this story, which is probably not true. But it says

that there used to be a Flemish painter working on the stained glass of the Duomo. And he

had a student, and this student was adding Saffron to all the paint in order to get it more

bright colors. Then the daughter of his master or his teacher was getting married, and they

were having risotto as one of the dishes during the dinner. And then the student decided to

give a present to the daughter of his teacher and add saffron to risotto. In this way, it got this

beautiful yellow or golden color, which, of course, stands for happy life. Probably this is a

very beautiful legend, but probably it's not true because they think saffron in risotto was

introduced a couple of centuries after they finished the stained glass of the Duomo. But it's a

nice legend though.

Katy

Let's not get facts in the way of a good story.

Inge

Exactly.

Katy

Well, okay, we've had our coffee. I'm hungry now. What can we eat? I know you have the best

recommendations. She really does.

Inge

Well, maybe it's nice to get a little bit out of the city center for some lunch or a dinner. A

very nice place, which I hadn't been to, but I went back recently, is Cascina Cuccagna. This is

also a really beautiful example of the proximity from the city of Milan and its agricultural

hinterland, like they call this here, because Cascina is the northern Italian word for a farm.

So this used to be a farm only 20 minutes on foot away from the Piazza del Duomo. And this is

now transformed into a cultural center. But they also have a really nice restaurant in which

they use local ingredients and they make really nice dishes for fair prices. Besides having

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

good food, it's also a really nice atmosphere. So in summer, you sit there outside in their

garden, etc. So it's a really nice place to enjoy a good meal.

Katy

You told me that one, and I went there, and it was excellent. I loved it. It was a while ago,

but I do still remember it was excellent.

Inge

Yeah, I went back there just a month ago, and they still have the same chef, but he's still

doing a good job.

Katy

It's really interesting to go somewhere that's been... it's still a part of a cultural hub. I think

sometimes in a big city, you don't see that so much, but it's really nice to see that people are

gathering in this one space, and there's a delightful restaurant where you can get really

delicious food as well.

Inge

Yeah, and I think also it's really important in Italy, because what I learned after 12 years of

living in Italy, people here are really social, even though they say that the Milanese people

are always in a hurry, they are arrogant, etc. But still, there's lots of people who work as a

volunteer or who contribute in one way or another to charity projects, etc. That's nice to be

part of it or see it from close by what happens in the Italian cities.

Inge

There's another really nice restaurant which has the same goals. They are using mainly local

ingredients, seasonal ingredients, of course. Most of it is vegetarian, but if they use meat or

fish, they use good quality products. And it's called Dispensa Degustazione e Ristoro, and it's

very close to Porta Garibaldi. It's a restaurant that opened only a few years ago, just before

the pandemic, I think. But then, of course, they had to close down during the lockdowns. It's,

again, part of a building which used to be the Casa dei Artisti, so the house of the artists. And

they still have artists in residences over there. They have an exhibition space.

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

Inge

They have a small botega, so you can buy products over there. They organize irregularly

markets, farmers markets, and they have a really nice restaurant, also there with a really

nice outdoor space surrounded by green.

Katy

Milan has got... if you were to do a comparison, it's not really a comparison, but Milan would

be like the New York, I would say, of Italy.

Inge

Smaller scale, but might be.

Katy

It's got more of that international vibe where people are innovating traditional things.

Inge

Exactly.

Katy

Which, as I said, I find really exciting, actually, in Italy. That's my favorite part about Italians

and Italy is a lot of people are entranced by the history, which I am too. But I think that it

gets really exciting when they combine their tradition with technology and they come up with

something pretty amazing.

Inge

Yeah, definitely. I completely agree with this.

Katy

Now, did you have some bakeries that you wanted to mention? Because we're all about the

pastry here.

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

Inge

Exactly. Well, not only pastry, but also very, very nice bread. Because 5 or 10 years ago, there

was It's a new bakery. He is called Davide Longoni, and he's the grandfather, even though he's

not that old. Sorry, Davide, if you're listening. Of a new generation of bakers, people making

bread, sourdough bread, high-quality ingredients again. So really selected the flour at the

farm, usually locally, well, locally or at least Italian ingredients, organic, and also wholemeal.

Whole grain? Whole grain, yeah. A whole grain flour in order to get also a quality bread. And

they're so different in the city of Milan.

Inge

One of them is really nice because it's run by a lady, and it's called Le Polvéri. They have a

small bakery near the Navigli area, which is also where to visit actually if you like to go for a

drink or a dinner because it's a big canal. And along the canal, there's lots of restaurants and

lots of bars. There's also a lot of tourism, so don't expect to be the only one over there, but

you can find some hidden gems there as well. But not far from that area, you have one of the

two stores of Le Polveri.

Inge

And then they have a second bakery, a little bit more on the outside of the center, on the

Southwest western part of Milan, where you can also sit down. You can have a delicious

breakfast there, of course, with the sweet pastry, the brioche, but also French-style

croissant, etc. You can have lunch there. I think they are even open for aperitivo, which, of

course, is a very important part of the lifestyle of the Italians.

Katy

Oh, that sounds good. I think there's some exciting things going on with the younger

generation, actually, isn't there? They're really taking their food culture to new heights and

trying new different techniques, but taking the tradition with them, too.

Inge

Yeah. And I also noticed there's another really nice bakery. It's called Forno di Lambrate. It's

in the Lambrate neighborhood on the east side of the city center. And this guy, he was

actually working as a financial guy in London. He got sick of working 60 hours a week. So he

decided to reinvent himself and he wanted to come back to Italy because maybe it's known

that many, many young Italians go abroad because they think there's better perspective for

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

them, better salaries, better work hours, etc. But then at some point, they realized that Italy

is also a very nice country to live in, so they have to find a way to reinvent themselves. And

then, well, some of them choose to become a baker, for example. So it's really nice to see

also the flexibility of the Italians, I think. Maybe they started to study, they follow their

dreams of themselves or maybe slightly also the dreams of their parents to have a nice job, to

be able to work abroad, etc. And then at some point, they realized that money isn't

everything. So maybe it's better to do something with your passion.

Katy

You know what? I always think when I go to Italy, and I was thinking a lot about this recently,

is there's so many people worried about artificial intelligence and bots and all of those types

of things. I just think, well, if you're worried about that, just take a visit to Italy because I

just feel like they're not going to be fast adopters of that technology. They're quite happy to

live their life and not become as fast-paced as perhaps we do in particularly English-speaking

countries. Everyone's on the go all the time. But yeah, I just feel like if they saw a robot

coming at them, they'd probably just kick it. They wouldn't like any of this technology too

much. I think that's some of the charm. Even in a super modern city like Milan, they've still

got those traditions and they still hold close to them the past and the traditions and the

culture rather than blindly adopting everything that's new.

Inge

Sometimes it's nice that they are inefficient. It's just an advantage.

Katy

It's frustrating, but that's why we love it.

Inge

It's part of the experience.

Katy

It is. It' the frustrating charm of Italy, I think. I have a question for you. Could you tell us,

what's your favorite way to spend a day in Milan? If you had one to yourself without your

children, just if you had a day all to yourself, imagine the scene, what would you do?

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

Inge

Well, I think, first of all, I would go for a nice breakfast. Actually, I don't go far away from my

house. I live on the northeast side of the city center in an area which is called Nolo, north of

Loretto. They are trying, of course, to change this area into a more popular area. There is a

really nice pastry store as well. It's called Fola. They have great coffee, roasted in the city of

Milan. I would go there, first of all, for a nice easy breakfast with an Espresso I usually take

for breakfast and a nice croissant. Maybe I read even a book or take a newspaper to relax.

Katy

Piano, piano, nice and slow.

Inge

Definitely. Then I would hop on my bike because I'm Dutch, so I'm moving around the city on

my bike, which is actually fine. I mean, Milan is a flat city. The infrastructure isn't yet

completely adapted to bikes, but if you know where to take care, it's a perfect way to go

around. And also I think one of the fastest way to go around because you never get stuck in

traffic and you can park your bike everywhere you want to park it.

Katy

But you're Dutch. You're used to it.

Inge

Sorry, I'm Dutch. I would cycle past the Bosco Verticale and the beautiful park which is there.

It's called Biblioteca degli Alberi. It's a really contemporary park, but very, very beautiful and

very well maintained. Have a walk around the Orto Botanico, and then I either visit or the

Pinacoteca di Brera because it's such a big museum that I haven't been able to concentrate

myself on all the paintings. So it's really worth to go there more than once. Or I would visit

the Museo del Novecento, which is the museum next to the Duomo, and it holds art from the

20th century. And it has a very important collection of art from the futurists who is a

movement coming from the city of Milan and who was mainly important in Italy in the last

century.

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

Inge

So yeah, this is really what I like to do. Then for lunch, I might have a pasta, even though it's

not a very... Well, you can eat it everywhere, of course, in Milan, but traditionally, it's not

coming from the city of Milan. But there are some nice places where they make a good fresh

pasta at fair prices. And then in the afternoon, I think I would just walk around. I might go to

the Cinque Via area, the Five Streets, if you translate it literally, which is similar to Brera.

Brera is very well known and it's also in a nice way touristic. Cinque Vie is less discovered, so

it's more quiet, but you have art galleries, you have some very nice courtyards in which you

can have a look. There are some smaller stores and there are some bars as well. And what I

think is really interesting about this neighborhood is that there's both some reminders of the

Roman Empire. I like to emphasize reminders because it's really the leftover offers. You can't

see any buildings anymore. Also some architecture from the fascist period, which, of course,

was a really difficult period in Italy because it was also the start of the Second World War, but

as an architect, I appreciate some of their buildings, the rational architecture. I would study

them a little bit more close.

Katy

That sounds amazing. I love it.

Inge

You like to come with me? The children are not there.

Katy

Of course! Because you should always choose some great places to eat. So everyone, if you

want all the notes on this, we're going to put them in the show notes, so don't worry, because

there are some complicated Italian names there. But actually, Inge and I had a really nice

lunch somewhere that you might not I think would be good, but it's actually really good, isn't

it?

Inge

Definitely, yeah. Well, I brought the Katy to the Milano Centrale Mercato Centrale. It's on the

central station, ground floor on the west side of the huge station building, which is worth a

visit as well if you're into architecture. It's a really nice, let's call it a food court, even though

maybe it doesn't really cover the explanation of this building. It has about 20 stalls of

different producers. Both local producers like Davide Longoni, the bakery I mentioned before.

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

They have a locally brewed beer from the Birrificio Lambrate, but they also have some Asian

food stalls, or you can eat fish, etc. You can order wherever you want and then find a place

to enjoy it, actually. It's really nice because it's attached to the central station, so it's the

perfect place to have a break before taking the train or when you just arrived in the city of

Milan.

Katy

We had tried these - it was like a risotto cake, wasn't it? That was really delicious. I'm

thinking about that now. I'm hungry it is nearly dinner time for me. I love hearing about all

these secret places in Milan. In fact, I hadn't heard of so many of them, and I really do need

to get back to Milan very soon, I think. I really do enjoy my time that's spent there. You really

need to work a little bit harder there to uncover some of these amazing places, but it's so

worth it. Some of the bars they have and the design and the design of the coffee shops and

just their attention to detail just on how they make their pastries is just amazing. So Inge, if

our listeners want to connect with you and learn more about all of the secrets of Milan and

access the Secret City Trails game or even booking for a tour with you? How can they do that?

Inge

Let's start with the Secret City Trails. We mentioned during this discussion. The Secret City

Trails are available on the website, secretcitytrails.com. You just select the city. We are not

only present in Milan, but in 55 other European cities. All trails can be played in English, and

they may usually also have another language, the local language, or in the case of the Milan,

Como, and Bellagio, one also in Dutch, of course. But I'm not sure if this really helps you out.

This is one way, very easy, low-priced. You can buy it and can immediately start it. I promise

you, you really get to places which are unknown, even by the Milanese people.

Inge

Then if you really want to connect with me, you can connect with me through my own

website. Again, this one is mainly focused on the Dutch people, but it's called Milaan met

local - just get in touch with me if you're interested in a tour or if you want to have some

more information on the city of Milan. I'll try to help you.

Katy

Inge is very generous, and she also does an amazing tour. I really appreciate the attention to

detail. I remember going past the canals and understanding a little bit more about the canals

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

of Milan with Inge, as well as trying lots of yummy food. It's a really interesting combination

of history and food and culture and the architecture and everything. It's just wonderful. I was

so thrilled that you got in touch and that we were able to have lunch so recently. So thanks

for joining us on Untold Italy.

Inge

Thank you very much, Katy, for giving me this opportunity.

Katy

No problem. I hope to see you again in Milan very soon.

Inge

Thanks, Katy. Bye.

Katy

Ciao, ciao.

Katy

Wow, I am so itching to get back to Milan now. I had a flying visit just for lunch with Inge after

a few days on Lake Como recently and I realized how much I missed it. For me, Milan is a very

grown-up city although as Inge has children of her own no doubt she’s got a few ideas of how

to spend family time there. Anyway as I was saying, Milan is sophisticated and fun - from the

galleries, shops and design focus plus all the great restaurants and bars it’s the type of place

to spend a few days exploring secrets and hidden nooks.

Of course, we’ve put all the places Inge mentioned as well as the details of the Secret City

Trails games and her website into the show notes at untolditaly.com/232.

Thanks for your ongoing support of Untold Italy. We truly appreciate all of you, our listeners

joining us from around the world including the Netherlands - hallo to you all. We’d love it if

you helped spread the word so we can reach more Italy loving travelers just like you. And the

best way you can do this is by leaving us a 5-star rating or review on your favorite podcast

app or forwarding this episode onto a friend who also loves Italy’s magnificent cities like

Milano.

Next episode we’re headed back to Puglia to talk about its amazing food culture.

But until then it’s … ciao for now.

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes